Apostasy Now!

Friends I’m convinced that the great last days apostasy has fallen upon the broader professing church. With the combination of the emergent/emerging idolatry of doubt, the Word of Faith blasphemy against our Lord, the rise of ecumenism among the heretical Roman Catholic Church and apostatizing Evangelicals, the Purpose Driven Madness of the Warrenites, the Seeker Sensitive man-centered church of self esteem, the lying signs and wonders movement, and the inroads that New Age thought have made into the church it’s my firm conviction that we are witnessing, on a broad scale, the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

Now I’m no prophet and I’m not pretending to have any “new light” about the events of our day, I’m merely relaying what I believe to be the Old Truth that was laid down for the benefit of those who are called by the Name of the Lord.

Consider the following from Herescope:

Throughout this inter-advent age–the time between Jesus’ Incarnation and Second Coming, or Parousia–Jesus and John warned that false prophets would arise preaching the doctrine of replacement christs (Matthew 24:5, 23-24; 1 John 2:18). As Jesus’ coming draws nearer, and as pictured by the image of Messiah’s birth pangs, we can expect that oracular announcements of anti-christs by the false prophets will multiply and proliferate. Some of these false messiahs will even work deceptive “signs and wonders” (Mark 13:8, 21-22). During this age Jesus warned: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not” (Matthew 24:23-26, KJV).

Continue reading here.

51 thoughts on “Apostasy Now!

  1. “…rise of ecumenism among the heretical Roman Catholic Church and apostatizing Evangelicals, the Purpose Driven Madness of the Warrenites, the Seeker Sensitive man-centered church of self esteem…”

    Heretical Roman Catholic Church? Interesting, since they believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and the way to salvation.

    Apostatizing Evangelicals? So every Evangelical is an apostate?

    Purpose Driven Madness of the Warrenites? Interesting since the Purpose Driven Life is not meant to be a source of truth, but rather a self-help guide to a better life based on Scripture.

    Seeker Sensitive man centered church of self-esteem? I never knew they had an official church, and furthermore, I know many pastors/churches who could be labeled seeker sensitive yet are never afraid to present the truth of the Gospel.

    Sounds like someone needs to lighten up. Yes I know the purpose of this blog, and I applaud the efforts of the writers on here to defend Biblical truth. But why beat a dead horse? Instead of railing against everyone you think is apostate, do something about it. This banter does absolutely nothing to change lives. Only actions and the sharing of the Gospel do that. Continuing on this path will only help and reach the people who think like you. If you and the other writers on here really want to see Christianity changed, don’t yell about it. Do something. The time for prophets is over.

  2. Thanks for your comments Ricky!

    If one human soul is reached by the truth about the apostate state of the broader professing church and that soul’s eternal trajectory is changed from hell towards heaven, then Christ is glorified.

    I praise my God that it’s not up to me, but it’s up to Him to open the hearts and minds wicked, sinful, fallen humanity to the truth of the Eternal Gospel; however if He in His sovereign providence might make use of a wretched lump of sin like me, then I rejoice in Him! And if He in His sovereign providence chooses not to make use of me, then I rejoice in Him all the same.

    Jesus Christ and His Eternal Gospel, the same yesterday, today, and forever despite the lies of His enemies!

    Would you say that you’re “born again” Ricky? Why or why not?

    In Christ,

  3. Ricky,

    I know you think that we should not spend time exposing liars for who they are, and that we should just let people follow these groups and possibly wind up in eternal destruction. But that is exactly what the apostle Paul warned the Corinthians about in his second letter to them.

    “if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!” (2nd Corinthians 11:4).

    The Corinthians had a bad habit of letting just anyone come and speak in their assembly. Kinda like what we have today.

    Roman Catholicism teaches us that we can pray to dead people, worship a Pope, and bow down to idols (statues).
    Apostisizing Evangleicals-Many “Evangelical” churches are watering down the gospel so badly that their people have no idea what sin is, and what they need to repent from.
    Rick Warren teaches a Jesus that just loves everybody and will let Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, etc into heaven.
    Seeker sensitive churches–see “Apostisizing Evangelicals.”

    But we are called to always expose these false teachers.
    Ephesians 5:11–have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    Romans 16:17-18Mark those who cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve the Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

    That’s why we do what we do.

  4. CD,

    I would say that I am “born again” because Christ saved me, and my life took a noticeable turn after. However, I don’t align myself with any Christian denomination.


    While I would agree with your points about Catholicism, is that reason enough to label them as “heretical”? I personally don’t think so. I may not agree with some of the church doctrines, but as long as a “denomination” agrees in the core tenets (Trinity, authority of Christ, only one way to salvation, etc.) then they aren’t heretical to me.

    As far as the rest of the points, I would wager that you generalize too much based on the teachings of a few pastors and churches. I went through a phase where I thought Rick Warren was completely heretical. But then I listened to some of his sermons, and read his stuff online—in reality, it isn’t that bad. Yes, somethings, he and others in his style can do better.

  5. The RCC teaches that the way to heaven can be obtained through Mary, praying to the saints, following the dictates of the Poop and his scarlet-robed perverts, working hard to stay in grace, keeping ALL seven sacraments (only way to guarantee quicker entrance to heaven), and spending time in a mythical place called purgatory to expiate for your sins!

    So, help us out here Ricky – What part of this doctrine is NOT heretical???

    The Desert Pastor

  6. Ricky,

    I’m glad to hear that you profess Christ.

    As The Desert Pastor has pointed out, and as can be easily substantiated with overwhelming evidence, the Roman Catholic Church denies the Eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ, therefore they are heretical.

    Interestingly Rick Warren also denies the Eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ, therefore he is heretical.

    That’s the way heresy works; one denies the fundamentals of the Christian faith and one is thereby heretical.

    But it’s not these demonic dupes that we are actually contending against, it’s the satanic power that lies behind them, we wrestle against powers and principalities in high places; our is a spiritual battle, spiritual warfare, but in the midst of this battle we must point out the enemies field generals and mouthpieces, and so we do.

    In Christ,

  7. Didn’t I say that some doctrines I don’t agree with? I’d encourage all on here to go the official Holy See website for the official catechism of the Church. You’d be surprised.


    Demonic dupes? the Poop? Scarlet-robed perverts? Enemy field generals and mouthpieces?

    Why? What is the point in labeling people in these terms?

  8. Ok, Ricky – Let’s use the words of the Scriptures:

    1. Their father is the devil.
    2. Wicked, depraved sinners
    3. Wicked, perverse generation
    4. Accursed to hell for preaching another gospel (such as Mary is co-redemptrix with the Saviour and it is through her we have our salvation)
    5. Giving heed to seducing spirits
    6. Teachers of doctrines of devils (i.e. forbidding to marry, requiring abstinence from meat)
    7. Liars
    8. Hypocrites
    9. Marked out for condemnation
    10. Having a conscience seared by hot iron

    That should be a better description than what I provided!

  9. Demonic dupes? the Poop? Scarlet-robed perverts? Enemy field generals and mouthpieces?

    Why? What is the point in labeling people in these terms?

    Because these spiritual deceivers are willfully complicit in their league with the devil, Ricky. And The Desert Pastor already gave one of the many Biblical reasons why in a prior comment:

    But we are called to always expose these false teachers.
    Ephesians 5:11–have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    Romans 16:17-18–Mark those who cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve the Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

    It’s not as though Popery and Warrenism are in disagreement with a few minor points of non-essential doctrine; the fact is that they deny Gospel of Jesus Christ and once one has denied the Eternal Gospel there’s nothing left to discuss, game over, Elvis has left the building.

    God teaches us by the inspired apostle Paul in the strongest language possible that even if anyone – even an angel from heaven – were to deliver another Gospel other than that delivered once for all in the Holy Bible then that messenger is to be ANATHEMA; or in other words ACCURSED!!

    This is no light matter, Ricky. This is the battle of the ages that is raging even today between light and darkness. According to the Holy Bible the enemies of truth – and they are legion – must be exposed, struggled against, brought low, and torn asunder by the power of Christ within His commissioned Ambassador-Soldiers. Those who are called by His Holy Name are the church militant of the One True and Living God to the praise of His glory alone forevermore.

    With respect to the utterly apostate teachings of the hell spawned RCC Pastor John MacArthur leaves a smoldering crater where the lies and deceptions of the Roman Catholic Church used to stand in this devastating expose of the utterly corrupt, false, and damnable religious system known as Roman Catholicism.

    Turn up your speakers and listen here!

    In Christ,

    P.S. Below are a few other links that I thought you might find helpful.

    Rick Warren: False Prophet

    Rick Warren: Arch-fiend and Heretic

    Never, never, never give up!

    Sacrificing to Moloch

  10. And yet, you and I are all of those things every day.

    I’m not really wanting to continue this, because obviously, you have a one-track mind who can’t seem to think of doing anything better than belittling other people. Maybe it’s time to get out of the desert and head to the beach. Ya know to kind of lighten up a little bit?

    Anyways this was an interesting conversation. My parting advice: let it go.

  11. Ricky,

    If you do all those things every day then you are not a Christian despite your profession of faith. There is no such thing as a disobedient Christian who lives a lifestyle filled with unbroken patterns of rebellion and sin against the Lord Jesus Christ. This is not to say that Christians don’t or can’t sin – we do frequently and miserably – but we loathe our sin and flee from it, clinging to the foot of the cross in humble contrition and repentance.

    Your cavalier approach to the truth, and more disturbingly your flippant response to error doesn’t witness Christ, in fact it witnesses to anti-christ.

    I pray that you would heed the inspired Apostle Paul’s admonition and examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith. If you think you’re a Christian because one time you said the so-called “sinner’s prayer” in response to an “altar call” then I’d ask you to look into your heart and do a gut check on yourself.

    For example do you think unregenerate sinners are seeking after the One True and Living God and are able to “invite Jesus to be their Lord and Savior” and “ask Jesus into their heart” by their own free will? In other words did you, Ricky, “cooperate” with God to bring about your own professed Christianity by doing something to bring about your own “salvation”?

    Again, these aren’t light matters that a Christian should “let go”, they are eternally important as they are the difference between eternal damnation in hellfire or eternal joy in the presence of the Lord.

    In Christ,

  12. Has anything I’ve said been not Christ-like? I hope not. I know I’m saved; you nor anyone else will ever convince me otherwise.

    But my main question is: Why do we have to name-call and belittle others in our disagreements with them about truth? Why?

  13. Has anything I’ve said been not Christ-like?

    Uh, yes several things in fact, for example being an apologist for the damnable error of Rome and Rick Warren.

    I hope not.

    At this point you hope in vain, Ricky.

    I know I’m saved; you nor anyone else will ever convince me otherwise.

    Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Roman Catholics and Muslims and many, many other false religionists have testimonies that they are “right” with their particular deities as well, how can you be sure that you’re “right” with the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible? (This isn’t a trick question.)

    But my main question is: Why do we have to name-call and belittle others in our disagreements with them about truth? Why?

    God Himself calls those who say in their heart there is no God fools, and the inspired apostle calls those who preach a counterfeit gospel accursed. It’s not ad hominem, it’s just the truth. If you can’t separate the personal from the abstract and you’re going to camp on this blog taking secondary offense to damnable liars and thieves who are mercilessly rending Christ’s little flock then I have no patience to entertain your little pity party, Ricky.

    What do you call the fiends who spit upon the Lord Jesus Christ and make a mockery of His perfect sacrifice by denying Him, perverting His Word, and making His commands of none effect? Do you call them “friends”? They are the enemies of the cross and therefore they are the enemies of Christ’s true friends.

    I should have hoped this would be obvious for a person who professes Christ Jesus as his Lord and Savior which brings us again to the question of the veracity of your profession of faith.

    In Christ,

  14. Greetings to All,

    The problem in which the secular world and with weak semi-Christians, is that lack of knowledge seems to promote mental images that the Bible allows for negotiations; Alex, I’ll take Biblical twisting and hocus-pocus for $100.00. And Father God somehow is an old smiley friendly fellow that sits around the sidelines, anxiously rubbing his hands, just waiting for people to repent, so he can become Lord and Savior! And only then, He is in charge; only with their assistance. The problem with the secular population and many Arminians, they just can’t understand or grasp that He is Sovereign in all things and all times in which the Word of God is not up for debate.

    The second problem stems from the seculars world and lacks-a-daisy flipped believers, is that their knowledge of demi-christianity outweighs their true biblical knowledge. Along with the belief that whatever they do and whatever they say who needs repentance, prayer and forget discernment of truth? Face it scripture and corrections are offensive. Hey as long as it feels good, ears are tickled, the band is booming, and some of the ladies in the pews be looking good, why who needs this follow this spiritual stuff? No heart for the Lord; you know the Christian version of American Bandstand or Soul-Train…..

    I am not describing anything but my own past, so if you get offended, oh well. Perhaps some might need to have a talk to the Lord and start studying the Word of God, while seeking the absolute truth. That is why I departed charismatic feel-good churches which there are more scriptures not being taught than those that are! I am grateful that The Holy Spirit opened my eyes and heart and the real biblical Lord Jesus came in like a freight train. God’s Word is not up for debate, either it is 100% absolute or it is just another book.

    Jesus is Lord

  15. CD,

    Are we living 2,000 years ago? Wow, I mean come on now, enough with this fanciful language and spirited descriptions of all this stuff. You sound like you’re about 10 years old.

    Is the purpose of this blog just to rail against those the authors determine as evil? Or is it to show people what the truth really is? It’s hard to tell now.

    I believe in truth. I believe the Bible to be absolutely correct and infallible yadda yadda yadda…but what I don’t believe in is charismatic condemnations for the sake of condemnation.

    Rick Warren, Rome, Evangelical Christians, or whoever else pisses you off for some reason; they are NOT the problem. It’s the Jesus WE preach that’s the problem. If we preach the right Jesus, people will be saved, and there will be clear differences between us and whoever else.

  16. Ricky,

    There may indeed be some people who may be saved in spite of belonging to the Catholic church. But these would be people who are slowly coming out of it. However, if someone is bowing down to statues (idolatry) and praying to dead saints (Mariolatry, necromancy), then that person is not saved because these things are expressly forbidden in Scripture.

    Your last statement is correct. If we preach the right Jesus, people will be saved. Unfortunately, many of the organizations we are “railing” against (seeker-sensitives, Emergents, Purpose-Driven, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller, etc) are NOT preaching the true Christ. They are preaching some laid-back hippie dude that just wants everybody to get along. Or, they are preaching a false gospel. One that says, “You’re a good person, God loves you just the way you are and He has a wonderful plan for your life,” and teach a salvation by works–that the main focus of the gospel is to “do good things for your fellow man.”

    The Jesus of the Bible? The first word He spoke at the outset of His ministry was “Repent!” People that think Jesus was just all warm and fuzzy have never read Matthew 23. And as far as the focus of the gospel, it’s not about “helping the poor” (although we should, of course). It’s this–all men are sinners, separated from God, dead in their sins. And without bowing and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they will be damned for all eternity.

    This is the Jesus and this is the gospel that is not being preached in many, many churches in Laodicea America today.

  17. Just be more respectful, and kind towards others. That’s all I ask. You can disagree, but do it with a caring heart, not an abrasive one.

  18. I am Christian. That is not what I am but who I am. I know and believe that the ONLY way to redemption is through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I was taught this from the Bible, learned it and believe it with all my heart.

    Having said that, I attend the Catholic Church. I am a cradle Catholic.

    I do not pray to idols, do not pray to the dead nor do I pray to Mary. I have never been taught too.

    Each time Mass is celebrated we read and are taught from the Bible. In fact in a three year cycle we cover the Bible from front to back. At all of our ceremonies Biblical readings are included.

    I have been taught that the Bible is the true and living Word of God. I attended the Catholic Biblical School in Denver for 4 years. I graduated.

    We, the Catholic Church were founded by Christ, see Matt. 16: 16-18. Peter was the first leader of our Church. Benedict XVI is one in many from the line of Peter.

    Is the Catholic Church with out sin? NO. Has the Catholic Church made huge mistakes? Yes. Is the Catholic Church a bunch of idolaters or necromancers. NO

    To those who consider the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon, please come join us and find out the truth. We are in fact Biblical based.

    Lord God, Loving Jesus, Blessed Holy Spirit:
    I ask the Angels, Saints, Mary the Mother of God and all those in Heaven to join with me in prayer to You, most Holy Trinity, that those of us on this earth that profess our belief in Jesus as our Lord and Savior work to build up the Body of Christ on this earth. Amen.

    May the Peace of Christ be with you now and always.


  19. Hi Tom,

    I have no doubt whatsoever about the sincerity of your comments, nor do I doubt that you truly, truly believe that every word that you’ve said in your comment is true.

    The problem is that you are deceived.

    There is simply no such thing as a practicing Roman Catholic who is also a true, regenerate, born-again Bible Christian since the two concepts are utterly opposed at every point.

    Certainly I believe that Roman Catholics can be mercifully saved by God’s grace alone, just like Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Buddhists, animists, atheists, and every other type of false religionist and the evidence of this miraculous salvation will be contrition, repentance, and a turning away from their former sinfully wicked false religious beliefs and practices. In point of fact the Mormons and JW’s – the spiritual “kissing cousins” of the RCC are both quick to point out how their false religions are also “Biblically based”.

    The reason I can say this with absolute certitude is because the Roman Catholic Church believes in a different Jesus Christ than the one presented in the Holy Bible. Furthermore the Roman Catholic Church presents another gospel than the one presented in the Holy Bible.

    These are objective and verifiable facts and not my subjective opinions and as such each of the claims I’ve made above can be proven as demonstrably true.

    If you are a practicing Roman Catholic as you claim then the sad truth is that you bow the knee to a religion that is utterly false, powerless, and idolatrous which thing is an offense and an abomination to the One True and Living God meaning that you presently abide under His indignant wrath and burning judgment because of your unforgiven sins and trespasses.

    If you’re interested in learning more I’d be happy to provide you with well documented resources that verify my claims above.

    Since your false prayers which are in truth offered to demons are not heard by the LORD I have prayed to my God, the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible, that He might miraculously open your eyes to His glorious truth of salvation by grace through faith in the REAL Jesus Christ of scripture alone in order that your eternal soul might be translated from its present estate of spiritual death unto spiritual life.

    In Christ,

  20. Tom,

    You mention that you don’t pray to Mary. But at the bottom of your comment, you write out a prayer, and address the Trinity, “Angels, Saints, Mary the Mother of God and all those in Heaven.”

    It seems that you do pray to Mary and angels and dead people. I’m trying to give your prayer the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be no alternative. You ask them to join you in prayer. This is praying, or attempting to communicate to those people, which the Bible strictly forbids.


  21. Tom,

    You said, I do not pray to idols, do not pray to the dead nor do I pray to Mary. I have never been taught too.

    I have to stand with Bill here. You say this, then end your post by invoking “Angels, Saints, Mary the Mother of God and all those in Heaven.” I’m sure you’ve heard 1st Timothy 2:5 enough times that I don’t have to repeat it. I will just say this: If we have ONE Mediator, but there are other mediators we go through to get to the ONE Mediator, then there are more than one mediator, and God is a liar. But God is not a liar. There is only one Mediator between God and man–and we go to Him, and Him alone.

    Do you pray your Rosary? Part of that Rosary is comprised of prayers to Mary. Did you faithfully obey Pope John Paul II’s leading of your church? You know, do you not, that if he had his way you would now be claiming Mary to be your Co-Redemptrix? Does your church have statues of Mary, and Christ? Do you accept the Mass (Eucharist) as being the LITERAL flesh and LITERAL blood of Christ, sacrificed again and again and again? These are just some of the many areas where the RCC has introduced their own (false) beliefs and imposed them on their followers over and above the Bible.

    If you are praying your Rosary–and by default praying to Mary–then that is indeed “necromancy.” It doesn’t matter one whit to God what Rome calls it. If one is communicating with Mary–who is dead–then that is an act that is expressly forbidden by God (Deuteronomy 18:9-13; Isaiah 8:19-20). John Paul II visited any and every shrine to Mary he could get to, bowing down to statues of her, in clear violation of Exodus 20:3-5.

    This is why we take the stand we do on the Roman church.

  22. The sinful mixing of a little good with something bad to corrupt the truth of God is not something that is new. In the days in which the Holy Spirit was inspiring the Words which make up the New Testament, an “antichrist” spirit was at work spreading falsehoods (I John 4:3).

    For example, “good works” are, Scripturally, good things (Ephesians 2:10), but they do not save souls (Ephesians 2:8-9). Angels are worthy of respect (Jude v. 8), but they are not to be worshipped (Colossians 2:18). Likewise, it is a good thing to be a “saint” (Philippians 4:21-22), but we should never pray to them (I Timothy 2:5).

  23. My prayer is to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit; the Most Holy Trinity.

    I am not praying to the Angels, Saints or to Mary the Mother of God. I am asking them to join me in prayer to the Most Holy
    Trinity, just as I ask others on this earth to join with me in prayer.

    I am safe and secure in the knowledge of the one true and only way to my salvation. There is only one Jesus, true God and true man, the one true Way to Heaven.

    Thank you all for your prayers. Know that I too pray for you and that I pray only to the Most Holy Trinity.

    Peace in Christ,

  24. I don’t want to be too technical, but isn’t talking to someone who doesn’t physically reside on this earth called “praying?”

    I guess I’ll make a exception for astronauts with tele-com devices, but otherwise…

  25. I am not praying to the Angels, Saints or to Mary the Mother of God. I am asking them to join me in prayer to the Most Holy
    Trinity, just as I ask others on this earth to join with me in prayer.

    Then you are talking to the dead. You can’t ask for their prayers without communicating with them. This is necromancy.

    Isaiah 8:19-20–“Should not a people seek their God? Shall they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the Law and the Testimony!”

  26. I’m going to side with Tom on this one, I know that probably comes as no surprise to the DefCon writers. Tom has adequately explained his beliefs, and his comments have nothing heretical in them.

    Is it too hard to believe that those in Heaven right now with God could possibly communicate to God in either prayer and/or praise? Could it be possible? I certainly believe so. Tom isn’t praying to the angels, saints, or to Mary, if he were he would ask for their personal help. Instead Tom asks that they would simply join him in prayer to God (Trinity).

    Nothing wrong with that.

  27. He is saying, “I am not praying to them. I’m ‘asking’ them to join me in prayer.” Unless he’s claiming they are physically appearing before him, then he is trying to communicate with them while they are in Heaven with the Lord, and that is prayer, whether you call it “asking” or anything else.

  28. Ricky,

    While it’s true that the saints in heaven do communicate with God (See Revelation 6:9), we are not to communicate with the dead. And yes, as MA and Bill and I have already pointed out, Tom is advocating necromancy. His exact words, and I quote, “I am asking them to join me in prayer.

    He is not simply hoping that they would join him. He is asking them directly, the same as if I asked you directly to pray with me. No matter how you cut it, this is forbidden by God.

  29. Fourpointer,

    Please give me the Biblical references that talk against necromancy. If there are too many, just the ones that you feel explain it the best.

  30. Leviticus 20:27–Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

    Deuteronomy 18:10-12–There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.

    Isaiah 8:19-20-–”Should not a people seek their God? Shall they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the Law and the Testimony!

    Galatians 5:19-21–Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions…and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Revelation 21:8–But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

    Remember what it said in Duteronomy about spiritists being an “abomination.” This passage in Revelation tells us that those who practice these things (abominations)will “have their part in…the second death.”

    These are the clearest evidences against the prctice. Then of course we have the example of King Saul calling up the spirit of Samuel, one of his last acts of defiance against God (2nd Samuel 28).

    It does not matter to God what we call certain practices. The only standard we are to accept for taking part in certain activities is what God says about them. And unfortunately many Catholics think that their adoration of Mary is a good thing, when in fact they have been decieved into taking part in something that is forbidden by God. I say this hoping that anyone reading this will see the truth and turn from doing these things.

    Glad to help,
    Four* Pointer

  31. Thank you for those verses, yet it seems to me that each of those verses was referring to people praying directly to the spirits/dead persons for the spirits/dead persons direct help. This was derived from pagan cultures around them who revered the dead as holy and capable of imparting divine intervention, from what I can tell.

    This is wrong. Praying to the dead is wrong, and I would agree with you all on this point. Yet Tom, I believe, is not falling into this. For he does not pray to Mary, he simply asks her to agree with him in prayer to God. I think there’s a difference, and the difference is of no consequence eternally. If Tom were to pray directly to Mary/any other dead person for help, then there’d be a problem.

  32. Ricky “thinks” and it “seems to him” that there’s “a difference” in Tom “simply asking” dead people such as Mary to “agree with him in prayer to God” and therefore since he’s only nicely asking dead people to join him in prayer as opposed to actually praying to the dead people…well that’s just not a problem despite all of the pesky verses that FP provided. But wait! It gets even better! Ricky demonstrates a remarkable (remarkably blasphemous that is) ability to reach beyond this life and enter a Not Guilty verdict on behalf of the Almighty Himself for all those who simply nicely ask dead people to pray with them (to “God” of course!) so long as the living don’t cross the line and pray to said dead people.

    Since he “thinks” this and arrives at his baseless conclusions without any scriptural evidence whatsoever – and does so based upon absolutely nothing but his own sinful reasoning powers – Ricky posits his false divinity by simply declaring it so! Poof! Argument over! “I think therefore it is” – thus saith Ricky! I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the idolatry of the heart demonstrated quite so clearly.

    Ricky is evidently just as deceived as Tom, but we’ve seen this before, haven’t we? Why yes, yes we have!

    In fact in his very first comment on this thread Ricky inexplicably rushes to the defense of the utterly apostate, heretical and abominable Roman Catholic Church in effect proclaiming the Reformation to have been a simple misunderstanding and overturning centuries of division between the harlot church of Rome and the true church of Jesus Christ which is based on the Holy Bible alone (Sola Scriptura). Incredible! Then he goes about on a sad apologetic escapade that can be summed up as “Lighten up, dudes – it just ain’t that serious.”

    I’m sorry Ricky, but the ignorance you’ve demonstrating here thus far is simply breathtaking; and the very worst kind of ignorance is willful ignorance.

    The church of Rome teaches another Jesus Christ and another gospel which things are an abomination to the One True and Living God and those who teach and practice such evil are anathema (accursed) according to the Bible (Galatians 1:8).

    As I said in my prior post: In point of fact the Mormons and JW’s – the spiritual “kissing cousins” of the RCC are both quick to point out how their false religions are also “Biblically based”.

    I’m certainly not the first person to make this connection as I discovered AFTER beginning to research this obvious corollary.

    The Roman Catholic church and its extra-biblical vain traditions of men are mystical, complex, confusing and in fact are founded on the very gates of hell as it is the modern manifestation of Mystery Babylon.

    Unsurprisingly but sadly the “emergent/emerging” types are easily drawn to this “spiritual” drivel as moths are drawn to the flame since in their doctrine and dogma free unregenerate minds they equate anything “spiritual” with the true God instead of discerning that there are demonic spirits who are busily deceiving men by appealing to their naturally and sinfully idolatrous hearts which crave the mystical and sensual as opposed to the eminently objective and forthright truth of the inspired Word of God.

    Practicing Roman Catholics are simply subscribing to one of the many streams of the one false and defiled religion of human achievement and merit which, as always, stands over and against the one true and pure religion of God’s achievement and merit in Christ. If Tom were a true, regenerate, born-again child of God then he would bear fruit that witnessed to this miraculous conversion by fleeing the apostate and anti-christ Roman Catholic Church false religious system. Instead Tom unrepentantly clings to, exalts, and embraces his vain traditions of men false religious system thus bearing the bitter fruit of unbelief and thereby denying Christ’s Words, rejecting His commandments, and making Him out to be a liar.

    In my view Ricky and Tom are prime examples of the myriads of outwardly “religious” slaves to their sin and trespasses who are blinded by the god of this fallen world system, their father the devil, who are unable to even perceive the pathetic spiritual reality of their miserable and wretched estate.

    A prayer: Oh Father please open the eyes of Tom and Ricky by your Holy Spirit alone my God and Savior! I ask You in the name of Your Holy Son the Lord Jesus Christ to penetrate the thick and wicked darkness that shrouds their unrepentant hearts and minds praying that your glorious light of regeneration, contrition, repentance and salvation might shine into their souls and that You, my King, would sanctify them by your grace and mercy to the praise of Your glory alone forever and evermore my Redeemer! I ask for this in Jesus name, Amen.

    Serving Him,

  33. Let me see if I understand this correctly.

    So because I don’t agree with the DefCon team, and I don’t think the RCC is altogether evil, that means I must be “slave to my sin” and an “unrepentant ‘son’ of the devil?”

    But wait, according to Coram Deo, who says “In my view…” this must be correct. Yet according to him, I was wrong for “thinking” and making a statement based on “my view.”

    Hypocrisy? Possibly. Please explain.

  34. I am still trying to figure out the statement by CD “the Roman Catholic Church believes in a different Jesus Christ than the one presented in the Holy Bible.”

    I have been taught that there is but one Jesus Christ. He is the Son of God and is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Each time I attend Mass we affirm:

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
    he suffered, died, and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    The Jesus I know is my Rock and my Salvation, my Lord and my God. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and the only way to the Father.

    CD, what other Jesus is there you refer to?

    Peace in Christ,

  35. Ricky,

    As I previously noted your words have demonstrated that you are spiritually blind so I don’t expect you to be able to understand what I’m saying apart from the enlightening of the Holy Spirit; Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

    I spent copious amounts of space in my prior comment objectively demonstrating from your own words in this comment thread your unbiblical and therefore anti-christ stance on:

    1) The grossly heretical RCC
    2) Your flippant, cavalier and unscripural attitude toward the gravity of rightly dividing the Word of Truth
    3) How you simply overturned in your mind the entire Reformation based on what you “think” with no support whatsoever

    Despite all of this you brazenly continue to demonstrate an utter lack of contrition, repentance or demonstrate even a hint of teachability and instead resort to simply accusing me of hypocrisy. This is the unbroken pattern of all your comments, this is the “conversation of your life” insofar as you’ve articulated it in your own words here.

    Now I have offered the explanation you requested and yet thus far you still have offered no explanation for your unbiblical and anti-christ positions on anything whatsoever, period. You just make blanket statements and bald assertions based on nothing and then become defensive when you’re called on the carpet for your silly word games. Is this hypocrisy? Yes it is, and at present you stand alone as a hypocrite.

    There is none as blind as he who will not see, Ricky. It’s a safe default position to assume that all men are lost and bound for hell apart from being found in Christ because this is a Biblical fact. Furthermore it’s safe default position to assume that all professing Christians are to be treated as heathens when they obstinately refuse to listen to correction (Matt. 18:16-17) because this is a scriptural command of Christ. The truth has been witnessed to you here by numerous members of Team DefCon who are by God’s grace representatives the true Body of Christ – the true and invisible church of Jesus Christ – yet you obstinately and continuously reject the truth and correction offered making yourself to be a heathen according to scripture thereby giving myself and other true Believers no option but to obey the scriptural admonition of Christ Himself as found in Matt. 18.

    No one here revels in your present miserable and wretched estate, Ricky; and that’s why we continue to reach out to you with the Truth.

    In Christ,

  36. Tom,

    The false Jesus of the RCC which you presently worship is unable to save you completely as evidenced by your blasphemous observation of the Mass and your painfully wicked and idolatrous practice of the adoration of the Eucharist.

    I provided three links in my prior post #33. I’ll make you an offer – just take the short time required to actually follow and carefully review each one of the aforementioned links – again there are only three and they appear greenish in color in my comment – and then come back with your questions and I’ll eagerly and happily engage you point by point. Deal?

    In Christ,

  37. Ricky,

    The problem is, when Catholics pray to Mary (in their Rosary, their devotions, etc), they are asking her to intercede for them because God did not answer their prayers the way they wanted Him to, and they think that Mary has a little more pull with her son, and can talk Him in to answering their prayers to their liking.

    However, this goes against what Christ told us, when He said that we should pray “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name…THY will be done…” Rome teaches that Jesus is obligated to obey His mother, even as He sits at the right hand of the Father. And what this does is it gives Mary the ability to hear the prayers of all the millions of Catholics around the world–an ability she does not have. In layman’s terms, when a person prays to Mary to ask her to talk some sense into her boy, what they are saying is that Jesus isn’t doing a good enough job interceding for them, and mom needs to help Him out a bit. See, they look Mary as being moere merciful in her intercession than Christ is, and is more likely to get what she asks for than Jesus is.

    This is why the practice of praying to the dead is heretical, because it takes away from the sovereignty of Christ, and makes Him beholden to Mary, to obey HER command.

  38. But Tom isn’t doing that, and from what I can see, doesn’t believe that.

    Coram Deo,

    The Reformation was an unnecessary event in the history of Christ’s church. If anything I think the Protestant and RCC should still be one today. It is important to note that the Reformation leaders/important figures (i.e. Calvin, Luther, Wycliffe) did not want to separate from the church, rather they wanted to fix what they had. Obviously that didn’t work out, and now we’re stuck being separate.

    I understand what the Bible is saying, but I don’t understand what you are saying, since what you say makes little logical sense, and is a disgrace to the person of Christ.

    You say, “The truth has been witnessed to you here by numerous members of Team DefCon who are by God’s grace representatives the true Body of Christ.”

    Yet I don’t believe your “truth.” The RCC is everything I would want in a church. Organization, unity, respect for doctrine, culture and history, etc. Does that damn me to hell? According to you it does, yet I don’t believe it does. Who’s right?

    Why throw out the baby with the bath water to use a cliche? Can’t we work towards fixing the things that are wrong with the RCC? Which I know I’ve explained to you that I don’t agree with everything the RCC teaches. But I don’t condemn it to hell.

    The writers on here are mired in personal prejudices, making this blog a vendetta against those they disagree with. There’s nothing that espouses unity in the Body of Christ, only separation, condemnation, and rejection of people such as Tom who believe rightly.

    For your information, I’m not miserable, nor do I live in a wretched “estate.” I’m actually quite happy, learning more about God, loving fellowshipping with other believers, and all in all my life is good.

    One who denies Christ as God and Savior is truly heretical. Yet the RCC does not deny this, nor does it preach otherwise. Again, I encourage every DefCon writer to look on the RCC official website. It’s very interesting.

    Don’t condemn someone for the sake of condemning.

    Tom, I understand you, and I praise God that you are a follower of Christ, and I pray for many blessings to you.

  39. Ricky,

    I don’t know how to be any clearer – WHAT YOU “THINK” DOESN’T MATTER!

    What matters is what God’s Word says, and His Word is crystal clear about His Truth which stands over and against the false teachings, vain imaginings, and deceitful traditions of men upon which the damnable doctrines of Roman Catholic Church are built.

    By stating that the Reformation was “an unnecessary event in the history of Christ’s church” you demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about that which you speak.

    You claim not to believe my truth as though the forthright, objective, and eminently clear Word of God to which I point is my own subjective “truth” when I’m simply pointing to what God says in the Holy Bible which is the only Truth.

    Despite your false assertions to the contrary there are no personal vendettas or prejudices in play here Ricky, we’re simply comparing the truth claims of all comers with the Word of God since for the Christian the Holy Bible is the singular and absolute standard by which all truth claims must be measured.

    As for you I can’t tell what you’re measuring any truth claims against apart from your own sinful, subjective, and corrupted reasoning powers. In fact throughout all of your comments this ends up being the case; you exalt your own sinful reasoning powers to the throne of your desperately wicked heart, and you set your own depraved mind up as the High Court of Appeals for all truth claims – including the truth claims of God Himself in His Word – and thereby you adjudicate and render your opinions and decisions based on nothing except for your own subjective feelings. By continuing to act in this manner you give further evidence of a depraved, stubborn, unregenerate and rebellious heart which thing is as the sin of witchcraft and idolatry to the Lord and is evidence of having rejected Him:
    “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry…” – 1 Samuel 15:23.

    Although you clearly don’t realize it Ricky you are bound in the gall of bitterness and caught up in the idolatry of the heart.

    You believe in a “broad way” Christianity that’s nowhere to be found in the Holy Bible.

    You espouse a desire for a false temporal ecclesiastical “unity” so called that’s built on compromise of sound doctrine and tolerance of aberrant beliefs that don’t line up with scripture instead of realizing that there is already perfect unity among the truth brethren who are baptized with one baptism and one Spirit at the very instant of the sovereign, God wrought, and miraculously merciful act regeneration and conversion that’s found in the REAL Christ alone.

    You and Tom deny the real Christ of scripture and embrace a false counterfeit christ of your own making and you can’t even see it. Self deception is the deadliest kind of deception rivaled only perhaps by the corporate deception of a false religion such as the RCC.

    Ricky if you truly believe that the Roman Catholic Church is truly a “Christian” church or similar to just another denomination then I would certainly encourage you to review the same three resources I recommended to Tom because it is none of that – in truth it is perhaps the greatest tool of religious deception ever devised by the mind of Satan to destroy men’s souls.

    In closing and despite yet another of your wildly false assertions no one here is “condemning for the sake of condemning” we are bound under the admonition of the Holy Writ to expose false teachers and earnestly contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3). Though you and your father the devil would love nothing better than for true blood bought Christians to stop speaking about the Eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ and the immutable revealed truth of scripture we – by God’s grace alone – never, ever will until He returns or takes us home. Instead we’ll continue to expose you and your kind and exhort you to repent of your prideful rebellion, your hardness of heart, your idolatry, and your sin and trespass and beg you to repentantly bow the knee to real Jesus Christ as He has revealed Himself uniquely within the Holy Bible alone.

    In Christ,

  40. Dear Coram Deo and 4Pointer:

    I don’t know why you guys expend so much time and energy on Ricky who does not ask his questions from sincerity and honesty, but instead is just here to put forward his false ideals “hath God really said.” People like Ricky consistently defend the Mormons, the Catholics and any other false religion, because they themselves have rejected the Truth. And when they’ve done that they’ve been “given over” and cannot seem to see any difference between all these apostate belief systems and true Christianity. Conversely, these same types do take up the fight against us. They are the new Pharisees. Not caught up in legalism, but caught up in universalism!

    These are the same people that would be against Jesus and the Apostle Paul (just to name a few) because of their exclusive, narrow-minded, intolerant views.

    Ricky has proven in the past that he is not of the flock. And if there’s any doubt, he clarifies himself when says the following:

    “The Reformation was an unnecessary event in the history of Christ’s church. If anything I think the Protestant and RCC should still be one today.”

    He sees no difference between the truth of Christianity and the lies of Roman Catholicism. The Scriptures warn about people like Ricky. Eventually you guys have to dust off your sandals with men like him. When that time comes is up to you. The threshold for ceasing to cast pearls before swine may be different for each person but at some point you guys have to come to the realization that–as Ingrid Schlueter says–there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Tired of all the clouds without water and autumn trees without fruit,
    – The Pilgrim

  41. For your information, I’m not miserable, nor do I live in a wretched “estate.” I’m actually quite happy, learning more about God, loving fellowshipping with other believers, and all in all my life is good.

    Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: – Revelation 3:17

    Welcome to Laodicea!

  42. Wow, I even got the administrator to respond on here! I’m impressed.

    In my parting defense, aimed at The Pilgrim, I do not defend Mormons, Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus, etc. Those religions clearly do not believe in the Biblical Christ, which I know you all would agree with.

    I DO NOT agree with all the doctrines/practices taught by the RCC, yet I do not think of it as evil, Satanic, damnable, etc.

    I am part of the “flock,” The Pilgrim, for I believe in the Biblical Christ, and that he is the only way to eternal life and salvation. I believe in the authority/accuracy of the Scriptures.

    My final warning: don’t ever say this again to me, or to anyone else on here. I repeat, don’t ever say this to me again:

    Instead we’ll continue to expose you and your kind and exhort you to repent of your prideful rebellion, your hardness of heart, your idolatry, and your sin and trespass and beg you to repentantly bow the knee to real Jesus Christ as He has revealed Himself uniquely within the Holy Bible alone.

    How dare you say such a thing to a Christian brother, who disagrees with you! People are allowed to disagree with each other in the church. How dare you sit up on your lofty horse, and say that to me? Get off your horses all of you, stop drinking the conservative, fundamentalist Kool-Aid, and realize that disagreement does not mean immediate damnation to hell.


  43. Ricky:

    “Disagreement does not mean immediate damnation to hell”. That depends on the context.

    1. Disagreement on what color the church carpet should be, no. Disagreement on who Jesus is, His deity, how salvation is obtained, etc., yes!
    2. It’s not disagreement with us that is the issue; it’s disagreement with God. We’re not your final judge.

    The RCC still affirms to this day that those who hold to Sola Fide are anathema. This alone makes Christianity and Roman Catholicism incompatible, it renders brotherhood with RC’s impossible, and it necessitated the Reformation.

    In spite of this RCC standing, the exact opposite is true. The RCC teaches a salvation by works gospel which is another gospel. And as everyone knows, whoever preaches another gospel is anathema (Gal. 1).

    And now add to that heaping condemnation and judgment: the Scriptures also plainly teach that those who still seek to be justified by their own merit have not only fallen from grace, but are cursed and severed from Christ (Gal. 3:10, 5:4).

    I’m not sure about you, but I definitely don’t align myself with those who are cursed, severed from Christ, and fallen from grace. This is a little more serious than just some shallow disagreements. There’s a whole lot more at stake here then differences of opinion.

    Perhaps you should take your propensity to debate to a Catholic site/blog. Defend the Christian faith for a little while and “ask questions” regarding the RCC beliefs to engage them.

    By now you should have come to understand that we at DefCon are not going to budge on our defense of the truth and the one true faith.

    – The Pilgrim
    P.S. I recommend this sermon to you to help you understand the differences between the RCC and Christianity.

  44. Like many, many deceived souls Ricky denies the real Jesus Christ of scripture.

    If Ricky truly believed on the Jesus Christ of scriptures as he claims then he would utterly reject the false, damnable, and anti-christ institution of the heretical Roman Catholic Church, yet like a bitter spring that cannot bring forth fresh water and like a thistle tree that can not bring forth grapes Ricky evidences his hardened unbelief by staunchly defending lies against the truth and rebuking the scriptural command to examine oneself to see if one is truly in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5). It would be understandable if he were acting from mere ignorance, but the truth has been shared with him multiple times by multiple witnesses and he continues in his unbroken patterns of sin and rebellion testifying to the wickedness and hardness of his heart.

    In all of this what we see missing is the Spirit wrought fruit of regeneration, contrition, repentance, which is the turning away from his prideful rebellion against the One True and Living God and His Christ towards a humble obedience to the whole counsel of the revealed Word of God.

    By his own actions according to Matthew 18 Ricky has made himself as a heathen and must be considered as a witnessing prospect that the Lord of Glory might have pity and mercy on his soul and miraculously grant him true repentance and salvation.

    Ricky please know that I am praying to my God for you; the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible whom you reject by your words and deeds through your deliberate and willful rejection of His commands not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers (i.e. defending the apostate RCC) and to be separated from the corrupt false religious system of this fallen world instead of embracing them.

    I would be honored to share the Eternal Gospel of real the Jesus Christ of scripture with you, Ricky. Only He can save you unlike the counterfeit false christ of your own making, a manmade idol of your own desperately wicked heart which you presently worship. Just let me know if you are interested.

    In Christ,

  45. Ricky,

    Thank you for the prayer and Blessings. You have been in my prayer and will continue to be. Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum.

    CD, I checked out your sites.

    As I said I know only one Jesus, the incarnate Son of God. There is only one Jesus. There are many that deny His Divinity, however when they talk of Jesus it is still the one and only Jesus. There are no “other” Jesus’.

    How do you respond to 1John4:2 ? Do you accept the One and only true Son of God, Jesus, as your Lord and Savior? Do you acknowledge the Holy Trinity?

    If not then Matthew 16:23

    Peace in Christ,

  46. Thanks CD for the invitation, but I already know for a fact that Christ knows me, and I know him. I know for a fact, without question that I will be with him someday, hopefully soon, because in all honesty this world sucks.

    Tom, I appreciate the prayers. I too shall keep you in my prayers, as well as your church.

    This was a good discussion, however heated, or intense it got for either side.

  47. Ricky,

    Take a look at Rev12:9. It is crystal clear why this earth is the way it is. Thanks be to God we have Jesus. I know you rejoice in Him. We will make it through this hell on earth. When things really suck, remember Luke 6:27-36.

    I look forward to the day you and I stand in the Glory of God with the one true Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit,and sing praise with the Angels, Saints and all the faithful.

    Peace in Christ,

  48. And the ecumenical train keeps on rolling . . .

    The words of Jesus were never so true as when He said the broad way that leads to destruction many will find, but the narrow [inclusive, intolerant] path few will find.

    Watching the world religions come together while holding hands and skipping down the path so broad that there’s room for every belief except those fundamental, narrow-minded, uncompromising Christians.

    Choo choo,
    – The Pilgrim

  49. Someone ask, “Where’s Jesus in Tulip”?????

    First, since numerous Christians, (God’s elect), and others also accept that man was rendered totally depraved from the very outset of sin; one can only reason through scripture that we are saved by God’s grace alone. In the Book of Genesis is states, “Thus God expelled him, and placed mighty angels at the east of the Garden of Eden, with a flaming sword to guard the entrance to the Tree of Life.” Friends the angels weren’t sent to have a BBQ or a ‘Hail and Farewell Party’!!!!
    The Old Testament Saints believed in God and the NT Saints should acknowledge the Sovereignty of God unto salvation through Lord Jesus only without additional mediation, (John 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me ).

    Secondly to summarize, from unconditional election to the perseverance of the saints, those who are saved and made (chosen) God’s elect are by the power of Jesus, the creator of the heavens. Also by his own words, Jesus did not pray for the entire world! “8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.” and openly declared that those that don’t abide in him are not his sheep. Jesus tells us in scripture {John 6:31-71, John 10:27}, “26. But you don’t believe me because you are not part of my flock. 27. My sheep recognize my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. No one shall snatch them away from me, 29. for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else, so no one can kidnap them from me. 30. I and the Father are one.”

    Where’s Jesus in Tulip? Tulip is directed by the scriptures itself, from God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, not from man, confused feelings or silly puny emotions…… The question should be, ‘Where is Jesus not concerning Tulip’?

    Jesus is Lord

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