Something serious seems to be happening right now with John Piper and CJ Mahaney regarding an unsettling position that they’ve evidently both taken on Christ’s atoning work on the cross.
Steve Camp has posted a disturbing expose on this subject over at his blog in a piece entitled “THE SCREAM OF THE DAMNED…was Jesus really damned by God for our salvation?” that resulted from a pair of sermons that were delivered at the 2008 RESOLVED conference by Piper and Mahaney. Here is how Camp begins his post:
“I have listened now several times to two messages from the 2008 Resolved Conference by CJ Mahaney and John Piper. The shocking phrase they both chose to use to describe Jesus’ finished work of redemption on the cross for the elect was, The Scream of the Damned. No, they are not referring to unregenerate people in hell, or the weeping and gnashing of teeth from perdition’s flames, but using this to describe the sinless, holy Son of God as our divine Substitute. The Lord Jesus Christ the Righteous now called: The Damned. This is unthinkable. Those words not only stunned me, but it did stir my interest afresh to go back and study again the atoning work of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross with those provocative words in mind.”
I began listening to “God’s Wrath: Vengeance is Mine, I Will Repay” by John Piper tonight after carefully reading through Steve Camp’s post and the comments meta and lo and behold what did I discover but that John Piper has evidently been teaching this doctrine for years!
My discovery prompted me to leave this comment in Steve’s meta:
Steve,
Since I don’t believe in coincidences I must believe that God’s providence brought me to the following piece from John Piper dated February 27th, 2005 which is entitled “God’s Wrath: ‘Vengeance Is Mine, I Will Repay,’ Says the Lord”.
I was researching this piece because it was linked from another blog as a resource for defending the Biblical truth of the doctrine of hell over and against the myriads who despise and reject this doctrine, but I was shocked to hear Piper make the statement near the beginning of this sermon that Jesus Christ was damned on the cross.
Now you’ll need to listen to the audio because the statement didn’t make it into the sermon transcript, but beginning at about the 1:18 mark Piper makes the statement; “Jesus Christ perfectly righteous and perfectly damned on the cross in our place”.
As I mentioned in my prior quote I’d never heard about this matter until today and suddenly I’ve stumbled across it twice now.
I pray that this matter will be earnestly and prayerfully resolved with all gravity.
This is no light matter my friends! Let us fervently pray that the One True and Living God and His Christ would be glorified as the details of this issue are sorted out in the light of inspired scripture.
Absolute Dominion 
ok help me out here…Jesus was condemend in my place and killed by God the Father in my place, He did take my sins and all of mankind is damned, and Jesus was our substitute. Is this not what they’re saying or am I confused? Thanks!
Since reading about this here and on other blogs, the use of the word “damned” to describe what Christ experienced on the cross is just not right. I believe that we are seeing a misuse and confusion of the words condemned and damned. No where in Scripture do we see or even gather that Christ was ever damned. Christ bore the wrath of the sins of the elect but that does not mean that Christ Himself was a sinner – that would be blasphemy. He is our vicarious penal substitute and to hear that He was damned just doesn’t sit well with me at all.
I admire Piper and Mahaney very much – I believe they are so passionate about God and His glory but I must disagree with their choice of words and maybe as this begins to be discussed more they will each place a statement of explanation. I must admit I would like to know where they are coming from before I start throwing up the red flags but from a first hearing having the name of Christ and the word “damned” together is troublesome if not blasphemous.
Thanks for posting this article here!
just wondering, do they not mean that He was condemned in my place…God the Father killed Him so He woulnd’t have to kill us and since all mankind is damned and guilty and Jesus took my place..is this not what they mean? Or is it something else they mean? Thanks.
What about Galatians 3:13?
Wendi / Danny,
I’d gently point the two of you to the link contained in the post above that leads back to Steve Camp’s original article and ask you to prayerfully consider Steve’s message, and then take the time to peruse through the comments thread to see how the discussion has unfolded there.
I believe having this discussion is truly time well spent since this is no light matter nor is it a simple case of the parsing of words – there are serious theological implications to making the jump from Christ being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13) which is scriptural to making the case that Christ was damned by God the Father on the cross – these two concepts simply aren’t equated at any point in scripture with respect to the person or the atoning work of Christ.
My position on this issue is closely aligned with what Jay Wingard has articulated in his comment above – and based on my understanding of his post Steve Camp is also taking a similar approach i.e. – “Let’s talk this out among the brethren and understand the facts in the light of scripture.”
As far as I can tell no one is throwing Mahaney or Piper into the apostate/heretic camp, rather there is a vigorous discussion taking place and given the implications herein such discussion ought to take place.
I’ll once again strongly encourage all interested readers of this short piece to follow the link back to Steve Camp’s site and carefully, prayerfully read through the entire article and the comments thread.
In Christ,
CD
I actually looked up ‘damned’. It does refer to being ‘condemned’ and such terminology, but usually also means ‘eternal punishment’ in a majority of the definitions. In light of that, it definitely seems unfavorable to refer to Jesus Christ our Lord as ‘the damned’.
I also looked up the verse in Galatians, which was the first verse that popped up in my head when I heard this.
I looked up the Greek word for “curse, ” as in “becoming a curse for us.” The word used is KATARA, which means: “an execration, imprecation, curse.” It is used six times in the Bible, three of them in Galatians 3.
To execrate (Random House dictionary) means (1) to detest utterly; abhor; abominate or (2) to curse; imprecate evil upon; damn; denounce.
To imprecate means to invoke or call down (evil or curses), as upon a person.
The same word is also used in Hebrews 6:8. See Hebrews 6:7-8 below for some context:
“For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
This appears to be a reference to fruit, trees that bear bad fruit (unbelievers) are cast into the fire to be burned in hell.
I also looked up the Greek word for the word “cursed,” as in “cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.” The word used is EPIKATARATOS, which means: “accursed, execrable, exposed to divine vengeance, lying under God’s curse.”
The same word is used in John 7:49, when the Pharisees are arguing amongst themselves and with the temple guards about seizing Jesus. The Pharisees, referring to the crowd state: “But this crowd which does not know the Law is accursed.”
I am not going to speak for John Piper. But I can see, possibly, where he is coming from. We know that Jesus cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Jesus Christ suffered our divine punishment in our place. What is our deserved punishment? Eternal damnation. He became the curse for us. He suffered that damnation, but He overcame it because we cannot. I’d like to think that Piper had this in mind during these sermons. The scream of the damned sounds like a sermon built around this catch phrase. I think it definitely could be said better. I’d like to hear a clarification from him as well.
Thanks for your comment Matt S. Presently no one is arguing as to whether or not Jesus Christ was made a curse for us, at issue is the claim that he was damned on the cross. The latter isn’t in scripture and it goes far beyond the pale to claim such.
In Christ,
CD
I have considered this troubling problem for some time because I think highly of Brother Piper. I know he loves edgy words and concepts…
However, back to this issue of the “damnation” of Jesus.
There is no indication of this damnation idea in the long narrative of Isaiah 52 and 53, but as the holy LORD making an offering for sin, and being pleased with it…Jesus is referred to with reverential awe even in the assuming of our burden of sin….
Jesus remains the sinless one, the Mighty God, and it is the error of adding to Scripture that is causing offense, and I wish those doing so, Brother Piper, et al., would stop it…..
This concept of Jesus himself being condemned, instead of our sin only, which he bore, without eternal consequence to himself, is ridiculous. The sentence of damnation is eternal.
I will continue to consider the symbolism of the scapegoat also. Perhaps some insight lies there, but a better argument than Brother Camps, I have not read.
Blessings to all.
Brenda, you are correct that there is no indication of the idea of damnation found in Isaiah’s narrative. In fact, I do not believe you would find any indication that the Eternal Son of God was “perfectly damned” to use Piper’s phrase.
If we consider each human being, the truth is the Scriptures tell us that it is NOT the sin which is damned to eternal judgment but the sinner. We sin as a result of being a sinner. We do not become a sinner because we sin. Our very natures are depraved to the core.
When the Lamb of God became the propitiation for our sins, He Who was the Sin-less One became sin for us. He knew NO sin took that upon Himself, so that we who are sinners could become the righteousness of God in Christ. Jesus Christ at no point BECAME a sinner!
Jesus Christ did not sin, and further, Jesus Christ COULD NOT have sinned. Therefore, to say that He was “perfectly damned” would indicate that He would have had to become more than sin. He would have to have become the “perfect” or “ultimate” sinner in order to be damned by the Father.
Such a thought is NOT supported anywhere in the pages of Holy Scripture. Further, such a thought is just as repulsive and heretical as the teaching that Jesus Christ could have sinned if only He had chosen to do so. This heresy is taught by many within charismatic circles.
Had the precious Lord Jesus Christ become a sinner on the cross, and not just BORNE our sins as the Sin-bearer, then God the Father would have had to eternally damn the One Who came to be the Messiah to hell. For that to have happened would mean that Jesus Christ lied for He could not have been Who He claimed to be – He was One with the Father. He was very God and very man.
I am greatly disappointed in the direction men like Piper and Mahaney are going with this, and I am afraid that it is only the tip of the iceberg which will ultimately either bring the approval of men, or will bring warning to those on board that something must be done or the ship will sink.
The Desert Pastor
Brenda, one more thing, you stated, “I know he loves edgy words and concepts…”
Anytime a true believer is directed to be a minister of the gospel, he has NO business whatsoever stating other than what the Word of God allows him to say. There is a big difference between sharing thoughts on a particular passage and claiming “Thus says the Lord” when it comes to personal opinions, “edgy words” and/or “concepts.”
When the minister takes liberties with a passage in order to be “cutting edge”, I am convinced there are larger issues which are at stake.
The Desert Pastor
DP said: I am afraid that it is only the tip of the iceberg which will ultimately either bring the approval of men, or will bring warning to those on board that something must be done or the ship will sink.
and again:
When the minister takes liberties with a passage in order to be “cutting edge”, I am convinced there are larger issues which are at stake.
Amen and amen, DP! These points seem to have been missing from the discussion – namely what is the effect of these words on both the speaker and the hearer? What are the consequences of extra-biblical, hyped-up “cutting edge” commentary, the ribald and oft times sensual “contextualization”, and the flesh pleasing, ear tingling “concepts” which are seemingly dredged up from the pit of hell by some men?
Words mean things and words have consequences. If one were to ever doubt the spiritual reality of this truth one needs to merely peruse the book of James. I was recently convicted and chastised of the Lord as our pastor lead us through an exposition on James and to be very open and honest I’m still trembling at the prospect of the proper (and improper) use of words which in my mind encompasses my blogging in addition to the world of iniquity and fiery torch known as my tongue.
DP said: Jesus Christ did not sin, and further, Jesus Christ COULD NOT have sinned. Therefore, to say that He was “perfectly damned” would indicate that He would have had to become more than sin. He would have to have become the “perfect” or “ultimate” sinner in order to be damned by the Father.
Such a thought is NOT supported anywhere in the pages of Holy Scripture. Further, such a thought is just as repulsive and heretical as the teaching that Jesus Christ could have sinned if only He had chosen to do so. This heresy is taught by many within charismatic circles.
Among my concerns on this subject is that such an incendiary claim as Christ was “perfectly damned” is to cross over beyond heresy and fall headlong into outright blasphemy. This is a terrifying prospect!
Particularly worrisome is the culture of Celeb-rianity that has sprung up around certain prominent and notable figures within modern day broader professing American church and the very obvious trend towards the concept of granting “the benefit of the doubt” to an extreme of almost “Papal Infallibility” proportions. I’m sorry friends but despite their many gifts and talents, which are granted by God alone, John Piper, John MacArthur, RC Sproul, etc. do not speak on behalf of God Himself ex cathedra.
Almost equally unfortunate is the sad fact that when Biblical correction is offered the penchant of some (even within the Reformed circles) is to borrow a page from the playbook of the defenders of the Prosperity Pimps and cry foul, and wave their hands and stamp their feet screaming: “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!” This tactic seems especially commonplace when it comes to their favorite big-name, well known, and prominent Bible expositor. For all intents and purposes such a clouded and unscriptural view is akin to idolatry and is to our collective shame as members of the Body of Christ. Father forgive us.
In Christ,
CD
If Jesus was damned, was he no longer God? How can God damn Himself? Jesus was God on the earth, Jesus was God on the cross and after the cross….if He was damned at any time did He lose His deity? It would seem to me that if we say He was damned that He would lose His Godly attributes and cease being God. This sounds awfully akin to what those heretics,such as Kennteh Copeland and Essex Kenyon promote. They teach that Jesus actually became the substance of sin and NOT a sin offering as in Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, He has put Him to grief when you make his soul an offering for sin……. In the Old Testament sacrificial system the sacrificial animal was to be spotless before, during and after the sacrifice. This play on words and edgy language that is invading pulpits today from some of Christianitys greatest thinkers and preachers, such as Piper and Mark Driscoll, is starting to take on a life of its own. It may be the beginning of another slippery slope.
Concerned
NOLAN – The truth is that God the Father didn’t damn His Son and NO ONE can prove otherwise from scripture.
It’s difficult for me to understand why any professing Christian would angrily defend the cunning fables of men over and against the clear teaching of infallible scripture as some are wont to do. But it is revealing when we also observe that among the most vocal defenders of the UNBIBLICAL FANTASY that Jesus Christ was damned upon the cross we find that some are also staunch apologists for using the word s*** from the pulpit, for using homo-erotic imagery in reference to the Ascendant King of Glory in the heavenlies, and are wholeheartedly in favor of embracing and espousing the UNSCRIPTURAL PERVERSION that Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son and second Person of the Triune One True and Living God actually harbored desires to engage in physical sexual relations with His creations during His incarnation.
Welcome to Laodicea!
In Christ,
CD
The Bible clearly says that God made Jesus sin for us 2 Cor 5:21. How else do you explain that Jesus bore our sins. Yes, He was sinless, and this is why He was the only one who could bear our sins. But on that cross, God poured on Him His wrath-only God can support His Own Wrath.
People, do not be confused-on that cross, Jesus became curse on our behalf. Because it says somewhere in the Bible, I do not have time to search right now, but you can do it on google, the verses that says cursed is the one who hangs on the wood-that was a prophecy regarding the death of Jesus. God could not look unto Jesus on the cross, because He was like the worst sinner-He carried my sins, He bore my sins-so this is why He says: My God, Why have You forsaken Me??? Because God does not look unto sinners…God, by making Jesus sin, reconciled the world unto Himself.
When Jesus said “Lord Lord why have you forsaken me..” was not point out he was seperated from the Father. In Jewish tradition many times people would quote a beginning of a passage and everyone would remember the rest of the chapter. That is what Jesus is doing. Jesus being “made a curse for us” is another jewish terminology that we loose in Christian thinking. The reverence is that anyone that is hanged on a tree diserved what they got. It was a form of divine justice. It was to point out that person was truly cursed. Even Jesus being a perfect sacrafice is another Jewish reference. Only a perfect offering can be offered and acceptable to God. That offering was only good for a years worth of sins. Now we see the perfect human sacrafice with not the blood of animals but the blood of GOd. Adam does not mean dirt or basicly man. Adam means blood of God when you look in the hebrew it is play on spelling meaning blood of God. The sacrafice had the sins of the person placed on them. So the one that had not sinned, who is our only sacrafice to permantly atone for sins for those that believe was given a death sentence. But he was not seperated from his divinity because if he was how could he plunder hell and arise victorious. If anything Jesus was sent to sheol, took the saints out of abrahams boosom, and took the keys of death from the evil one. THERE IS A LOT OF THEOLOGY PRESENT AND JEWISH HISTORY BEHIND THE CROSS. For anyone to say anything about without stating your words closely is a problem. Again it may come down to the fact that he is Calvinistic and he holds to idea that the wraith of GOd had to be satisfied on the cross. But that idea is old and doesn’t take into account of the purpose of the sacrafice int he jewish tradition and values neo-platonic viewpoints.
Jesus died in the flesh of man. So He experienced the wrath of God for our sins, being the sin offering in our place. Yet, He was still God. Forever God. Holy, Harmless. This is a great mystery, but we are to remember that He condescended to become like us, to redeem us. Yet He was not us as He was/is God and we will never be Him. We will never “BE God” yet we will be one with Him forever as His Bride. To say Jesus was damned is not biblical. to say the wrath of God was poured on Him is, and the He is the propitiation of all the sins of all men for all times is biblical. (note: I am ex-calvinist, note: forgiveness of sins saves no one. Note: Must have new life in the Spirit to be Saved!!!) Dave
Matt S.’s entry above is accurate.
Proverbs 17:15
He that justifieth the wicked,
and he that condemneth the just,
even they both are abomination to the LORD.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Isaiah 53:9-10
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Matthew 26:39
Going on a little farther, he fell on his face and prayed, “O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Yet not what I want but what you want.”
That last verse, Jesus was talking about the most fearsome cup of God’s wrath. He was so afraid of it that He sweat drops of blood.
It wasn’t people who ultimately put Jesus to death. It was the judgment of His very own Father. He, who was holy, was made into an abomination in God’s sight, deserving of the full measure of God’s condemnation.
The punishment that was laid upon the One of infinite value is the equivalent of eternal condemnation for us worthless sinners
To damn is to condemn. This word should not offend you. Instead, it should make you realize how much God loved you. He crushed His own Son to save us.
Mark,
Why do you damn God?
The scriptures never teach that Jesus Christ was damned, and the scriptures you’ve referenced DO NOT pronounce damnation upon Christ, yet you are found guilty of damning Him with your own words!
Have you no fear of God?
Jesus Christ was God Incarnate, and God cannot be damned. Jesus Christ was the sinless, spotless Lamb of God in whom there was found no guile, or sin, or stain or spot of any kind. He suffered infinitely and perfectly in our place, bearing the wrath of God, being made sin for us, but never, ever was He damned and to claim otherwise is to go beyond the scriptures, and to commit grievous and wicked error.
I am deeply offended when my God is profaned.
In Christ,
CD
Wow, not sure how i stumbled upon this- seems very heated to say the least.
This appears to be going in circles until someone can do the justice of explaining the difference between being CURSED and being DAMNED, of being made sin for us and being DAMNED, of being a propitiation for our sins and being DAMNED for our sins.
From those who have attempted to define damned (usually those defending the use) it seems there may be room for benefit of the doubt even if it was not a good use of words.
I’ll try to check out the SJC post (so if that’s already addressed then blessings)
Though the word ‘damned’ isn’t in scripture, doesn’t mean it’s not applicable (though i don’t believe anyone has the right to create a definition for a word) . Rather it’s not applicable because of what it means.
I would assume no one is suggesting the death/punishment of Christ was symbolic, but that he literally suffered under the wrath of God.
Yeah it’s a fearful thing if the reason the term was used, was for creative shock-value.
Coram,
My apologies. I hope I did not offend you too much. It was not my intention.
Just to reiterate the above:
I looked up the Greek word for “curse, ” as in “becoming a curse for us.” The word used is KATARA, which means: “an execration, imprecation, curse.” It is used six times in the Bible, three of them in Galatians 3.
To execrate (Random House dictionary) means (1) to detest utterly; abhor; abominate or (2) to curse; imprecate evil upon; damn; denounce.
This is my whole point: to describe Jesus Christ on the cross, the Scriptures use very harsh words like abomination and curse (which are, in a sense, more poisonous than the word damn – an abomination to God is the subject of his utmost hatred). Why should we soften it then? If God made Jesus accursed for us on the cross, who’s to say otherwise? We need to understand that Jesus was subject to the FULL wrath of God, which otherwise would be enough to damn all sinners to hell.
Let me be clear about one more thing: Jesus was only made sin for us for a moment on the cross. Now and forevermore, He sits as God at the right hand of the Majesty in highest holiness.
I don’t say this because I don’t fear God, but because it’s what the Bible said. The effect of this truth on me is not disrespect, but a greater appreciation of how much Jesus loved me and us all.
Mark,
The Bible never states that Jesus Christ was damned, ever. If the Holy Spirit had ever meant to teach that Jesus was damned, then that would be what was written since the concept of damnation/condemnation/perdition is clearly established and taught throughout the scriptures.
Jesus Christ was, is and always will be perfectly God. God cannot be damned, and God cannot damn Himself. Therefore the idea of Jesus Christ being damned is patently absurd and wholly unbiblical. Jesus Christ was the sin-bearer in our place taking upon Himself the wrath of God as our substitute, while yet remaining completely holy, innocent, and blameless.
Others can go beyond the plain teaching of the Bible and damn the sinless Lamb of God with their mouths, and they can even defend others who do the same if they so choose, but as for me I’ll just stick with the scriptures which never pronounce damnation upon the Risen King of Glory.
In Christ,
CD
The very thought of how Jesus was so crushed and forsaken on the cross makes my stomach sick and my heart ache.
I can’t talk about this any more. Even His condemnation on the cross is too holy and precious for my worthless insights.
I see here a cacophany of different opinions about this topic, that is to say, about the very gospel itself. If all of you are in the “body of Christ”, the “church”, then what kind of a “church” is that? St Paul in his letter to the Ephesians tells us that the Church has “one mind, one Lord, one faith”. If that is so, then you all sure aren’t the Church.
Not one of you has suggested here that “Brother Piper” is a heretic and is outside of the Body of Christ. Nor is there any practical way for Protestants to anathematize a heresy like the Catholics did in the Councils of the early Church.
So here you hold that someone can be in the “Body of Christ” and yet hold the opinion that Jesus was damned by the Father on our behalf!
The problem here is that Protestantism promises people a false gospel.
It says you can be saved from eternal damnation merely by accepting Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross on our behalf.
And what’s more, you can know that you are saved.
This necessitates the doctrine that Jesus bore the curse for us, which is taken to mean that Jesus suffered infinitely and perfectly in our place.
“Suffered infinitely” amounts to the same thing as “damned”.
Piper and Mahaney are not inventing anything new here.
They got this thinking from Luther and Calvin themselves, who held the very same doctrine. It is an integral part of Protestantism’s doctrine of “sola fide” or justification by faith alone. This new thinking was a novelty never believed by anyone before Luther and Calvin.
We find this thinking also in Paul Washer, Charles Hodge, John MacArthur, Lorraine Boetner, Jonathan Edwards, and a host of other leading Protestants.
This idea of Jesus suffering infinitely for us is actually integral to Lutheranism and Calvinism and all of Protestantism. Because of this notion that Protestants have that they are “saved”, they cannot help falling into the blasphemy that Jesus was damned for us.
Even those Protestants (such as Baptists, Methodists, Arminians, Dispensationalists, Pentecostals, etc.) who think themselves removed from Lutheranism and Calvinism actually still think like Lutherans and Calvinism in a number of ways. They haven’t gotten rid of all the Lutheranism/Calvinism in their thinking.
Lutheranism and Calvinism (and really, by implication, all of Protestantism) were anathematised as a heresy by the Orthodox Catholic Church at the Council of Jerusalem in 1672. This Council is absolutely authoritative for Orthodox Christians.
“For being severed, or rather rent away from the Westerns, and consequently being absolutely rejected by the whole Catholic Church, and convicted, they are manifestly heretics, and the chiefest {Κορυφαιότατοι.} of heretics. For not only have they become, from motives of self-love, propounders of new and silly dogmas (if it is allowable to call what are really only fables dogmas); but are entirely external to the Church…. he who is not adorned with the Church’s name, cannot even be called a Christian, much less be a Christian; and teaching them that they should, therefore, join the Catholic Church, though they have not understood this. And this [they do], not as maintaining that our [teaching] is altogether true. For if that were so, they would not in other matters have maligned us, but would have agreed [with us] in all things; nor would they have desired to have become our teachers, who but yesterday and the day before, raging, meditated vain things; {Cf. Ps. ii., 1.} but would have been willing to learn of us, and to obey us, who hold what the Apostles preached, and what the Catholic Church hath held, and doth hold, and will in fact ever hold…. But because we are at a distance from them, and in a way unable to acquaint all the Calvinists with the trick their leaders play upon them, it hath served their purpose, which was merely to deceive the more simple, to boast that whatever they, the Calvinists, have chosen to innovate, that the Eastern Church holdeth, and conversely. But, as it is impossible in this matter for light and darkness, or Christ and Beliar, to be together, {2 Cor. vi., 15.} so it is impossible for our adversaries, so long as they follow Calvin the heresiarch, as a leader, to be at one with the Eastern Church in what concerneth faith….”
“For fifty years after the madness of Luther, Martin Crusius of Tübingen in Germany, with other sophists, adherents of the novelties of Luther (for the notions of Luther and of Calvin are really very much alike, though they seem to differ in some particulars), sent the leading features {Κεφάλαια.} of their heresy to him that was then at the helm of the ship of the Apostolic Church at Constantinople, that they might know, as they said, whether they agreed with the doctrine of the Eastern Church. And that venerable man wrote unto them and against them three treatises or pragmatic answers, theologically and Orthodoxly rebuking all their heresy, and teaching them all the Orthodox mind which the Eastern Church hath held from the beginning; but none gave heed, bidding adieu to Orthodoxy.”
“”To Cyril putting forth as a dogma, and holding… that works are in no wise sufficient to procure a reward at the tribunal of Christ…. Anathema!”
“faith without works is dead”
“The decree of the Seventh Holy, Great, and Oecumenical Synod holden at Nicaea enacteth that we should keep without innovation all the written and unwritten Ecclesiastical traditions which have been delivered unto us, under pain of anathema; of which the invocation of the saints is one….”
“To Cyril putting forth as a dogma, and holding… that the Saints are not mediators and intercessors for us with God; by saying that Jesus is the only mediator… Anathema!”
The errors of the Lutherans and Calvinists were also rejected at the Council of Trent by the Papacy – although the Papacy has no real authority for us.
Protestantism has no way of kicking people like Piper and Mahaney out of the “church” for their blasphemous teaching. Protestantism has no way to anathematize heresy. If they were kicked out of one church, Piper and Mahaney would just go to another church, and still be considered part of the “body of christ” or the “church” by most Protestants.
If Piper and Mahaney were kicked out of the “church” for teaching this, then Luther and Calvin would have to be kicked out as well, and not many Protestants really want to do this.
The only solution to this madness is to return to the real Church – the Holy Catholic Church – the Orthodox Church which continues to follow the Council of Nicaea (including the calendar of that holy council), and which has the true Holy Gospel.
“But it is well said by one of the Fathers, that it is not easy to find a heretic that hath understanding. For when these forsake the Church, they are forsaken by the Holy Spirit, and there remaineth in them neither understanding nor light, but only darkness and blindness.”
“We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which worketh through love, that is to say, through faith and works.”
John Bardin,
Thanks for stopping by. I will answer several of your points as I believe they need to be addressed.
1) Your logic is astounding. Because Protestants cannot get along in every aspect of faith and with one mind, that makes us not the “true church.” Considering neither the Roman Catholic system nor the Orthodox system get along in all points of doctrine or even with themselves, I fail to see the point you tried unsuccessfully to make.
2) Protestants and Baptists do have a way of putting somebody out of the local church. You see, this is the error of the Roman Catholic system. The Bible clearly teaches that each assembly is to be autonomous and self-governing. Popes, bishops, prelates, cardinals, etc. are man-made titles were given to subjugate true believers under one central command and certainly have not one ounce of Biblical basis. When the word bishop is used, it is another reference used of a pastor/shepherd/elder.
The system that is used (granted not in all because of lack of teaching and courage to do what is right) is termed church discipline and is the responsibility of each local assembly to govern their members. When a minister of another assembly teaches that which is heresy, we have the right and responsibility to warn the members in our own local body of the dangers.
3. History shows that sola fide is NOT a new way of thinking per John Calvin or Martin Luther. The apostle Paul made very clear that justification is by grace through faith alone (see Ephesians 2:8-9). Apostles James and Peter are not add odds with one another. Paul clarified that salvation is in and through Christ alone, not because of any single thing we could do, nor because of any merit in ourselves. James continues by stating that if you think you are in Christ, but your life does not produce works (or fruit as Christ proclaimed in John 15), then your faith is dead. You have no true faith. However, those works NEVER produce salvation.
4. You said, ““To Cyril putting forth as a dogma, and holding… that the Saints are not mediators and intercessors for us with God; by saying that Jesus is the only mediator… Anathema!” I am afraid, sir, that you along with millions of others have been duped. The apostle Paul made it clear in 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” Scriptures teach nothing else, and to say otherwise is HERESY!
The Roman Catholic system continues to devolve into greater and greater heresies. They have used fear to bind the minds and hearts of their adherents, and NEVER the Scriptures. If they had permitted the common people to read and search the Scriptures centuries ago, the Roman Catholic system would have been turned on its head centuries before Martin Luther came along. The Roman system knows that a person who has the ability to study the Word of God for themselves produces a clear understanding that what is being taught from the throne of the pope is nothing but that which damns the souls of men to a Christ-less eternity.
To conclude, you say, “This Council is absolutely authoritative for Orthodox Christians.” That may be acceptable for “Orthodox Christians” but for true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, our final, full, and absolute authority is the infallible, inerrant Word of God – namely SOLA SCRIPTURA.
John Bardin,
Thanks for stopping by. It is obvious that you came here not with the intent of searching for the truth, but to spread the heresies of your religious organization. This venue is not open for such purposes.
To conclude with you, the Bible says there is no other name under heaven whereby we may be saved apart from Jesus Christ. The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul made it clear that it is by GRACE, through FAITH alone that we are saved and this is available to all who place that faith in CHRIST ALONE for their eternal salvation. All other ground is sinking sand and ANATHEMA to all who believe the lie propagated by the evil one through the religions of the world and especially the Roman Catholic system.
We will pray that you will one day learn the truth of God’s Word and put aside the fables of man before it is eternally too late.
The Desert Pastor
John,
Why 20,000 Protestant denominations? I thought it was 33,000, or maybe it is up to 50,000 now. Unity in the Catholic church is a ruse, paper thin and carnal, which anyone who has been a Catholic knows full well. The only “unity” that exists is where everyone goes to a building every Sunday that calls itself a church and pantomimes in lock step with the conductor (i.e. priest). Bowing and crossing, chanting and kneeling all on cue as they have been trained like mindless automatons from youth.
Apart from this, Rome’s unity completely collapses. For there is disunity about sex before marriage, sodomites as priests and congregants, woman priests, girl alter boys (eh alter people), abortion, priests being allowed to marry, Vatican II/Tridentine Mass, Mary as Coredemtrix, the authority of the Pope, understanding of verses of Scripture, etc., etc., etc.
And this is not even considering the lives that bear witness to the deadness of the tree. For so I know from my 25+ years within Rome’s grasp as well as I witness with those loved ones still snared in her clutches. But such is to be expected when one is told the lie that as a baby they were born again. Hardley… And where Jesus Christ (the true one in heaven and not in a wafer or hanging helplessly on a crucifix) and the true gospel are not preached but rather dead, mindless ritual.
Because dead, mindless ritual is all Catholics know. Blind, ignorant obedience to ritual that the vast majority have no idea why they are doing such things and honestly could care less. Programmed, ritualistic obedience that equates to nothing more than Pavlov’s dog salivating at the ringing of the bell. In Rome’s case I guess it would be kneeling at the bell.
And the only reason why Catholics do these things is because they have been brainwashed into believing that simply by DOING these things that the Roman hierarchy says they must do, then they have their ticket to heaven. Or I guess more correctly, a ticket first to the burning fires of purgatory equivalent to hell fire.
Just DO what we say, and all will be well for you. Meanwhile, they cannot even articulate what the gospel is let alone give evidence to a changed life. My family members both near and far as well as friends and relatives give ample testimony to this. Parents over 70 now having attended Mass since babes and they cannot even comprehend the gospel and true salvation, let alone be able to cogently articulate it. When I speak of these things they are like deer caught in the headlights; no different of what I see with others. I just experienced this a few days back with a nun and lifelong Catholic lady I witnessed to. It was like I was speaking Greek or something to them.
And all Rome tells them and millions of others is don’t worry bout a thing, you just keep going to Mass, and we’ll take care of you. Same thing she told me when I was growing up even though I was a breath away from dying in my sins.
Lies – damnable lies and the blood of many will be on your hands as you continue to propagate such lies lest you repent.
Finally, you wrote There are many absurdities and blasphemies that result from sola fide. If God does it all and you don’t contribute any works toward your own salvation, then why does God do it all for you and not for someone else? Do you understand the concept of a gift? Do you understand the concept of unmerited, unearned grace? What work pray tell does one do to earn a gift? What did you do to earn the gift of being born into the world?
Regarding works and grace, the moment one undertakes to work for salvation as final payment, what they hope to receive at the end of their work day (i.e. life) is no longer a gift but rather payment for work done. Something which Paul clearly addresses in the book of Romans and elsewhere.
In terms of fairness, are you fair? Do you treat every single person you meet the same way. Do you give money to Planned Parenthood as well as Catholic Answers? Why not? What right do you have to discriminate? Does one who adopts a baby have to adopt all in order to be fair? Would it be loving to only take one child home and not two, three, four, or all of them?
Likewise, was it fair for God to save Israel and to damn those outside of the covenant family? Was it fair for him to deliver Israel and to destroy the Egyptians and kill scores of innocent first borns? Was it fair for him to kill Ananias and Sapphira who lied, and yet let Peter live who denied him thrice? Why does God said rain and abundant harvest to America and yet Africans and many others perish in famine? Why does God allow some babies to live and others to die. Why do some people get healed and others die? Why are some lands ravaged by wars and others left untouched? Why do many abortions succeed but some fail where the baby lives? Why, why, why?
Who are you or any man to tell God what is fair or what is not fair. God does as he pleases as Nebuchadnezzar learned whose words you do well to hear. And so God is fair if he chooses to save some and to allow others to stay exactly where they want to stay; wallowing in the pig sty and living in darkness.
John Bardin
Forgive me if I am speaking out of turn here.
Paul spoke of the Jews of his day that they were zealous but their zeal was not based on knowledge. Respectfully I think this could be applied to you.
You have confused unity with uniformity;faith with religion;the word of God with the words of men and the body of Christ with the organizations of men. To the religious leaders of His day , the Lord Jesus said “You are in error because you do not know the scriptures nor the power of God.
Those who put their faith in any man-made religious system are guilty of idolatry. There is one Name under heaven by which men must be saved. And that is not the name Catholic,Protestant nor Orthodox.
Amen my brother Glenn!
Very true.
Dear brother Michael:
Funny thing.
Last night the Desert Pastor recommended I show John Bardin the door as he has come in here to espouse his false doctrines, and as you know, DefCon is not willing to give one who teaches false doctrines a platform to do so; that would contradict the whole purpose of us being here.
So Mr. Bardin’s comments have been held as DP requested. But I noticed that today he left a comment that is kind of ironic. In his comment he said:
“Protestants think just like Roman Catholics on a number of points. You are closer to Roman Catholicism than we are. Protestants and Roman Catholics are just two sides of the same coin.”
What’s so funny about this is that you, DP, and probably everyone else who read his first comment thought he was Roman Catholic.
So what is he?
“brother Michael, umm, I’m not Roman Catholic, I’m Orthodox. The Roman Catholic Church is not the true Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church is. Rome is quite different from us.”
What is so ironic about his comment is in spite of his erroneous and utterly baseless claim that “Protestants and Roman Catholics are just two sides of the same coin,” after his first comment everyone pegged him for a Roman Catholic. I don’t think anyone’s ever mistaken us for a Roman Catholic.
And if anyone thinks this is an isolated instance of mistaken identity, I recall not many months ago another individual came on DefCon and spewed his works-based false gospel and until he revealed he was Eastern Orthodox, everyone thought he was Roman Catholic too.
Yet Mr. Bardin has the audacity to claim “Protestants and Roman Catholics are just two sides of the same coin.”
Sometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying.
– The Pilgrim
For more on the false religious system of Eastern Orthodox, check out this previous DefCon post.
This is to the idiot who said that all Catholics are united on is going to Mass on Sunday and going thru rote ritual. Hey, ignorant one: We all accept the Nicene Creed which acknowledges faith in the Trinity, the virgin birth of our Lord, his atoning life, death, and life giving resurrection, his ascension into Glory and his coming again. It confesses the Holy Spirit as God and professes the truths of One Church, one baptism, resurrection, and eternal life. So, we Catholics are very united. It is you Prots who can’t agree on anything…that is why you have over 25, 000 denominations. When you can produce great saints like Francis of Assisi, St. Augustine, Mother Teresa, St. Athanasius…I might listen to your ravings. Otherwise…shut up.
David the Hobbit,
A few things to point out.
First, not all of us are Protestant. I am a Baptist and even Catholic scholars acknowledge that the baptistic doctrine and faith preceded the Reformation. True baptists were NEVER part of the RCC system and were actually persecuted by RCC and Protestant churches alike.
Second, the definition of a saint from a Biblical perspective versus Catholic tradition is very different. A pope can make somebody into a so-called saint even though that person is in reality suffering in hell for eternity because of their lack of belief in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for their eternal salvation (and that goes for the popes as well as many so-called RCC saints). However, the Bible declares that a saint is the definition of all who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone.
Third, as one of the editors, I would remind you to read our Rules of Engagement before you start name calling. If you have a problem with this, there are other blogsites you can visit where that is fully acceptable.
The Desert Pastor